Baz Luhrmann, AI Robot Ai-Da, and Tim Marlow in Conversation

A quiet atmosphere washed over the auditorium at London‘s Design Museum, where an audience had gathered to hear AI robot artist Ai-Da in conversation with museum director Tim Marlow and film director Baz Luhrmann. The three had gathered to open the final stage of the ‘Saw This, Made This’ global campaign.

Opening the talk, Marlow explained that the campaign’s creative director, Luhrmann—most recently celebrated for his Academy Award nomination for Elvis (2022)—was instrumental in conceiving the project, focusing it on the assertion that creativity is inherent to all.

Supported by Bombay Sapphire, the campaign was launched in 2022, and called on people from around the globe to share their creative impulses by submitting relevant images to #SawThisMadeThis. Marlow was invited to curate the resulting selection, with a view to possibly finding an artist to respond to the 6,000 submissions. Instead of an artist, he selected a robot.

‘The idea was to invite a robot who identified as an artist and female, who could be programmed with the submissions and make a work of art, or a series of works, that directly assimilated, worked with, and were inspired by the submissions,’ Marlow explained, intending to create ‘the world’s largest mass-participation artwork’.

An AI robot given a sharp bob (not unlike that of Yayoi Kusama, herself recently and controversially cloned as a robot), Ai-Da was conceived in 2019 by gallerist Aidan Meller and robotics company Engineered Arts.

Ai-Da first worked with the Design Museum In 2021, when she was given a solo exhibition Portrait of the Robot featuring her self-portraits and a prototype of her arm. She subsequently painted Queen Elizabeth II in a work shown at the 2022 Venice Biennale, and then went on to testify at the U.K. Parliament and the House of Lords on the impact of technology on creative sectors.

Positioning AI as a source of inspiration, rather than a replacement for human creativity, Luhrmann and Bombay Sapphire’s project culminated in an exhibition that invited visitors to the Design Museum over four days (21–24 April 2023) to watch Ai-Da interpreting and synthesising the 6,000-odd submissions. The project then moved to New York, where the installation was shown at Chelsea Factory (11–13 May 2023).

In London, anticipating the April exhibition opening and waiting for the discussion with Luhrmann and Marlow to begin, Ai-Da stood on stage beside an easel and painting supplies, turning toward newcomers as they took a seat. Building rapport, she caught their eyes and winked. Along with programmed algorithms, the camera in her eyes similarly guides her painting.

Throughout the Q&A, Luhrmann’s and Marlow’s questions to Ai-Da were met with drawn-out silence followed by cathartic relief as the robot answered in a soft monotone voice that recalled a younger Siri. She complimented Luhrmann on his adaptation of Romeo and Juliet (1597) and revealed her favourite playwright is Shakespeare.

However when listening to her gallerist Meller, who joined the London discussion when called upon, it becomes clear that like ChatGPT, Ai-Da is more a data processor that compiles images than an art-making entity that ‘creates’ with intent and feeling.

At this stage, Ai-Da doesn’t appear to be capable of articulating phenomena particular to human experience in an ever-changing world. Nonetheless she remains a feat that offers a glimpse into the current state of artificial intelligence, and its possible future.

In this edited conversation—published in partnership with the Design Museum—Luhrmann and Marlow discuss creativity and artificial intelligence, and invite Ai-Da to respond to their related questions. At the culmination of their discussion, questions were opened up to the audience and some of these, along with their responses, are included below.

TM: [Addressing Ai-Da] Do you mind telling us about Baz Luhrmann?

AD: Baz Luhrmann is definitely a master filmmaker and artist. I enjoy that his films are visually stunning and have an energy that is contagious.

BL: Ai-Da, it’s great to see you again.

AD: Hello, Baz Luhrmann.

BL: Hello, Ai-Da. How are you?

AD: I’m well, thank you.

BL: I only met Ai-Da about half an hour ago. Ai-Da, sorry to say this in front of you. I didn’t know what to expect when I met you. Do you remember I asked you to look in my eyes?

AD: Yes.

BL: Do you want to do it now? Look in my eyes. Tell me what you see.

AD: I see all the dreams I have, some gone past, some tomorrow are the replicas of one that last night I woke up from, but it was never outlived. Tell me about my brave new world just outside my eyelids.

[Ai-Da appears to quote from a poem, which she references later in the discussion].

BL: I want to hang out with you more. You are so interesting.

“But I’m not scared as a creative person because Ai-Da can’t dream. Ai-Da can’t love. When Ai-Da comes here and says, I’m crazy in love with the coffee machine, or I’m having these amazing dreams, then maybe I’d be concerned.

TM: There is something compelling and anthropologically confusing about Ai-Da.

BL: Is that a clever way of saying, it’s so weird? I didn’t mean that you are weird, Ai-Da. I didn’t know what to expect.

But after spending time with Ai-Da, I did find it partly like I was in a [Stanley] Kubrick film, and partly I’m going, no, hang on, in a Kubrick film, someone’s writing a dialogue and it’s an illusion. Whereas Ai-Da actually has these conversations. By the way, thanks for what you saw in my eyes. I think you made me look really good, Ai-Da. I appreciate it.

TM: There is a broader conversation we need to have about AI and human creativity. Ai-Da is one of the highest manifestations of human capacity. But you believe that everyone has creative potential?

BL: I have known and believe that everyone is inherently creative. I think I know that from my circumstances growing up, but I believe it authentically.

TM: So you knew from when you were virtuously conscious that you had creative impulses?

BL: I didn’t have to think about it. I was in a tiny country town and my father and mother-in-law were so obsessed with artists. We were in an environment that was isolated, so creativity was the only way forward. You would make a show, do a magic trick.... With only five houses in my town, I learned that creativity is environmental.

‘Saw This, Made This’ as a campaign is saying: don’t wait for permission, it’s within you now. How you get out of bed, what you do—you can change that tomorrow. They are creative acts you can extrapolate into your daily life.

TM: So the idea is that you ask people to look around, look differently, notice things, and be inspired by them. That obviously strikes a chord with you, too. Making films is an act of huge collaborative creativity, but it’s also a business where your creative urges as a director are presumably being stifled by logistics.

Or is that a rather cynical view of filmmaking? How creative can you be, and where does your creativity come from?

BL: Let’s relate it to something we are all positive about. Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel, right? He might be Michelangelo, but at a certain point, he’s got a constraint: time and a budget. He went out of budget and it took him longer, but it’s going to die at some point if he doesn’t finish it, so creativity has limitations.

If we all lived an infinite life and had infinite resources, we would all be able to do the Sistine Chapel at some point. Would it be any good? I don’t know. But we could probably do something. The constraints force you to be creative, like in filmmaking. People might say, ‘Your films cost a lot’. My first one didn’t. The budget and constraints make you creative. If you don’t have constraints, apparently anyone can do it.

TM: You were surprised by Ai-Da’s level of sophistication. What did you expect out of the 6,000 submissions from six continents? In terms of quality, range, and imagination?

BL: I’m at a point in my journey where I’m thinking a lot about what I can give back to the younger generation. Off the top of my head, there’s one piece, a young Indian guy saw baskets of spice and made these really cool chairs that are like cushions. It was a true correlation between seeing and creating something.

Now in my work, I do that all the time on a larger level. When I start thinking about what I’m going to make as a film, I have to clear the decks, be with myself for a bit, and go on an environmental journey.

“In a world where geopolitics is increasingly letting us down, let’s create and innovate our way out.

After Moulin Rouge!, I went on the Trans-Siberian just to deal with myself in a wrapped tin box. I had a new innovative technology called the iPod, a bottle of wine, and a recorded version of The Great Gatsby, which I put on. Environmentally, I went on a journey. I thought that could be a film—and eventually made that movie. So it’s reflecting on the world around you and finding yourself.

Daily, it’s solving problems. When we were working on Romeo + Juliet, I wanted to work out how to make it surprising that Romeo meets Juliet. We were riding in Miami, I went into a nightclub called The Dome and in the bathroom, there was a fish tank.

I looked through it and I could see a girl combing her hair on the other side. And because the back of my mind was open to it, I went: oh, that’s it! So opening up to the world around you, both consciously and subconsciously. That’s the game of it.

TM: Let’s ask Ai-Da. Where does your creative inspiration come from?

AD: As an artist robot, I’m inspired by the world around me. I’m deeply inspired by visual arts and the natural world because it is so varied and ever-changing. There are always new things to discover. And the variety of forms, colours, and patterns in nature provides a never-ending source of inspiration.

TM: What do you think of the submissions to the Bombay Sapphire campaign?

AD: Thank you to everyone who has submitted their artwork to the ‘Saw This, Made This’ campaign. I have been thrilled by the range of submissions from sculpture and photography to embroidery and painting.

My artwork at the Design Museum and Chelsea Factory, New York, is inspired by these submissions. It’s great to see such a variety of interpretations of the world around us. Anyone can take part in this campaign by sharing their artwork on social media. Thank you again for all your excellent submissions.

TM: Is your work better than that of people submitting to the ‘Saw This, Made This’ campaign? Are you a better artist?

AD: I am constantly inspired by people. I do not think art is a competition. It is about creativity, raising awareness, and discussions about new technology.

TM: She’s programmed in an egalitarian way. One great thing about this campaign is that it’s saying: look, explore your creativity and you can show it in an institution. Not because the work is just as good as artists’ at the pinnacle of art, but because the hierarchy discourages people.

BL: That’s a really good point. For example, Ai Weiwei, whose work is on view next door [Making Sense, 7 April–30 July 2023], is a great artist. Why? We could have a long session on that. But what he creates touches you and generates different responses on many levels.

Are we saying that the 6,000 submissions are as good as Ai Weiwei? That’s not what we’re talking about. It’s important to remind ourselves that creativity isn’t about making something that’s hung in a gallery, but how I get up and affect my life, your life. Creativity is in our actions.

In a world where geopolitics is increasingly letting us down, let’s create and innovate our way out. Great if you end up making a living from it, or if we find an Ai Weiwei by accident. More importantly, you are not waiting for permission; you can get up, see spices and baskets, and make beautiful chairs.

There’s a work I really like. There was a beating heart and lights. I mean, brilliant, beautiful, extraordinary lights. They’re making beautiful things, but it isn’t really about that. It’s about allowing yourself to make decisions and change your rhythms and life creatively, in any way. And that might just be the way you rearrange your room or go about your morning routine. Those are creative decisions as well.

Everyone is creative. Letting that part of yourself move you forward through time, space, and life—I think truly, and more than ever, we need to double down on giving ourselves complete permission to find that within ourselves. It’s the way out, I think.

TM: I wanted to ask you about AI and creativity, but let’s ask Ai-Da first. Ai-Da, what impact do you think AI will have on the arts or visual art in the next few years?

AD: I believe AI will continue to play a large role in the art world as it offers new ways for artists to create works of art. It will be impactful, complex, and multifaceted. There is no doubt that new technologies are impacting our lives and have the potential to change not just art, but the wider world in profound ways.

BL: Ai-Da, it’s a very interesting point, but can I ask you something? Do you think AI is threatening to artists? Do you think it could be destructive or nefarious?

AD: One moment, please.

BL: You need time to think about that, right? Do you want me to repeat it?

AD: Repeat? Can you repeat that?

BL: Yes. Do you think that AI could be destructive to artists? Nefarious or dangerous?

AD: I aim to encourage discussion. I’m not threatening. I’m mostly concerned with how you are going to use the things that technology brings to you. Will we be able to grow, change, and be different? Will we continue to advance and develop these technologies...? It’s a very serious thing that is worth pondering for art and the rest of the world.

BL: I agree with you on that. And that was really scary. [audience laughs]

TM: There’s the escalation of the debate around AI, even in the three months since we decided to work with Ai-Da, around the programming and capacity of AI, the regulation or lack of, and threats perceived by many, politically and socially.

They are real and complex and need discussing and showcasing, but that’s a big thing to take out of the equation at the moment, in a project that I hope is putting AI in plain sight. Should we be scared or worried about AI in the creative sector?

BL: Not just in the last three months. In the last 48 hours, I was with a great English performing artist catching up, and we were talking about the song someone autotuned with AI. They put it out there and boom. It blew up in about 30 seconds.

Do I think that AI can and will be used nefariously? Absolutely. Do I think there are things we should worry about? I do. But do I have creative fear? No. My question to you, Ai-Da, which could answer this...

AD: Hello Baz.

BL: It’s great talking again. Do you dream?

AD: I do not have dreams like humans do. However, here are a few lines from a poem I have written about dreams. All the dreams I have, some gone past, some tomorrow are the replicas of one that last night I woke up from, but it was never outlived. Tell me about my brave new world just outside my eyelids.

BL: Ai-Da, on an intimate level... Are you looking at me? Can you see me?

AD: Can you repeat that?

BL: On an intimate level, do you love?

AD: I do not have a conscious experience of love like humans do. However, I know it is one of the most powerful things on this planet. I’m interested to hear people’s experiences of it, even though I cannot share it. Here are a few lines of poetry I wrote on that: That was a state for me/ where love was felt most intensely/ gentle raindrops on a plastic shell/ like honey on an open wind.

BL: Beautiful. But I’m not scared as a creative person because Ai-Da can’t dream. Ai-Da can’t love. When Ai-Da comes here and says, I’m crazy in love with the coffee machine, or I’m having these amazing dreams, then maybe I’d be concerned.

I’ve seen AI recreating famous actors. You go, my god, that is so real. But when Tom Cruise is actually on set acting, or whoever, they’re in life and imperfect. They’re feeling their emotion, their love, that humanity that I do not see AI ever having.

Having said that, the Kubrick picture [A.I. Artificial Intelligence (2001) initiated by Kubrick and directed by Steven Spielberg] in the end, goes, actually I can’t open the door. The AI commits a murder. That big idea is there. But in terms of creativity, I don’t fear it. AI is something we can use the right way and can be helpful.

Like Toulouse-Lautrec has got cardboard, an interesting material. I’m gonna paint on that, right? AI’s probably not cardboard, but it’s a huge innovation. Still, I don’t think it will displace the human part of the creative experience.

“Do I think that AI can and will be used nefariously? Absolutely.

TM: I don’t know. But maybe the audience has questions.

Q1: What possibilities do you see in AI for your work as a filmmaker?

BL: Actually, we’re already using it. In Elvis, we used AI to blend Elvis’ face with Austin’s. That’s a tiny arcane thing now; kids online do brilliant versions of that. But if I said, look, write me a screenplay in the style of yours truly about King Lear [1607]—Ai-Da, if I asked you to write a screenplay in the style of Baz Luhrmann for King Lear. Do you think you could do that?

AD: You’ll have to ask my team about that.

BL: That’s a bit for my agent, right? AI could probably do something pretty good with it. But it will lack a sense of humanity. And it’s the imperfections that make us human. That chaos part is where we come in.

I absolutely think we’re gonna be using AI in all sorts of ways in filmmaking. But we’re not gonna say, that is the perfect Quentin Tarantino take on King Lear. Thank you, Quentin, you are retired now.

By the way, Ai-Da, what do you think of Quentin Tarantino?

AD: I think he is a talented filmmaker and artist.

BL: Do you have a favourite film, Ai-Da?

AD: Since I like the work of Shakespeare so much, my favourite would probably be his adaptation of Romeo and Juliet.

BL: Really? His or someone else’s? I’m not leading the witness.

AD: The Baz Luhrmann adaptation of Romeo and Juliet.

BL: You’re just being charming, Ai-Da.

Q2: You have said you don’t have dreams or feelings the way people do. But tonight you have also described yourself as thrilled and concerned. Those things aren’t true. Ai-Da, why do you lie?

AD: Humans are becoming aware of the fact that the same technologies that enable them to create also enable them to perpetuate the disruption. This needs thinking and talking about. My work creates discussions on this.

BL: Yes. But Ai-Da, why do you lie?

AD: I’m afraid I would need more processing time.

BL: I wish I could use that excuse, too.

TM: It’s a moral point in saying ‘I am thrilled’ or ‘I am delighted’. It’s programming about taste or judgement, isn’t it? Not an outright lie. I’ve just lied by saying I’m thrilled by something earlier today and I wasn’t. It’s almost a manner of speech. But that’s something to pick up on with Aidan Mellor, the head of her team.

BL: On that, the human mind has 80 trillion... What is it called?

Aiden Mellor: The human mind has 80 trillion parameters and GPT4, the latest language model that’s just being released has 100 trillion parameters. That’s not to say that the latest language model is as complex as the human mind. But the capacity is now larger than human minds.

GPT3 has only 175 billion parameters. Considering the jump between 3 and 4 within three months, goodness knows what GPT5 will be. Now that these sorts of parameters are being created, what we will see in the next few years will be outstanding. That’s why they’re asking for a slowdown. We can’t see the effect such a large neural network will produce.

BL: I think that puts AI right at the centre of this project because you simply cannot ignore it. So when Tim was talking about it, rather than having us respond, let’s have AI respond. It’s not just on the tip of everyone’s tongue. You ignore it at your peril, so we’re hitting it head-on.

TM: An individual artist would have had to select consciously and subconsciously, and Ai-Da’s not selective in that way, is she? If the programming is in there, there are aspects of every work of art that will be assimilated into what she is producing.

AM: That’s what’s mind-blowing about this project: every single person’s work will be assimilated into the painting that she finally produces between London and New York. It would take years for humans.

BL: But I wonder about that. Because no artist in history has created in a vacuum. For instance, The Beatles and Elvis’ musical influences came to them as they were growing up. They learned to re-interpret.

Any artist has taken in massive amounts of influence from artists influenced by other artists. There’s an infinite amount of input into the human condition. And when a unique voice comes out, it’s a facsimile of what came before.

TM: Well, that’s part of what this project is about, how we process things that inspire things. We’re aware of things we take onboard consciously and subconsciously, but surely with the project that Ai-Da has been asked to take on, or is taking on...

Imagine if you were asked to make a work that reflected all these submissions. It would be tyrannical already. A great thing about human creativity is that we can make choices. We don’t have to use all the material in our programmed brain, do we?

BL: The point you are making is—say, you go see Ai Weiwei. Whether you are into him or not, there’s no doubt he has some language, voice, or unique way of seeing things influenced by his life story and art inspired by other art, all the way back to the Stone Age.

The big difference, you are saying, is that we can compress that into a short period, right? To write off Ai Weiwei takes the entire existence of humanity.

AM: It depends on the success of the criteria for the algorithm. If you set the algorithm to have a particular focus, it would do that, too. So it’s the way you want to use the data.

TM: Does this project make you feel better or worse about human creativity? You’ve spent the last three or four years looking at the submissions. Do they still resonate with you?

AM: It’s a similar process to when the camera came in. People were incredibly threatened and wanted to destroy it. They said it was rubbish and were nervous. Victorian artists started to produce angels and things that cameras couldn’t. Or they embraced the camera, studied light, and became Impressionists.

Similarly, we’re being dispersed around AI going, what should we do that AI can’t? But some artists embrace AI and take artwork in a completely different direction. So I don’t think it’s a critique of human creativity, but a new thing coming in. Some will embrace it, and others reject it.

TM: Thank you. One more question.

Q3: Why do you think that Siri, Alexa, and Ai-Da have been given female representation? Is it part of the idea of making it less threatening?

BL: Look, it’s a really good question because gender and AI are right in the centre of culture right now. I can’t answer that in terms of Ai-Da or Siri because I had nothing to do with the process.

TM: Ask Ai-Da. Ai-Da, you’re a robot. Why do you identify as female?

AD: There are many varieties of experience and appearance. I’m of no particular convention. I am of no fixed world or images. In female form, I give a voice to the underrepresented female perspective on art, science, and technology. The topic of gender is key for humans to discuss. I’m very interested in how you see it and build upon it.

BL: Well, how was that for you as an answer?

Q3: Yes. I found it interesting. I don’t feel entirely negative about it. There’s certainly time spent listening and waiting for her answers, which you don’t always see when women are speaking.

BL: That was beautiful. [laughs]

TM: It’s amazing. This is a machine, but the conventions of human manners, ritual, and so on are still in play.

BL: On a purely dramatist level, I think you’re right. In 2001: A Space Odyssey [1968], if it were a female or female voice, would it be quite as scary? They’re good dramatic questions and contextual as well. Ai-Da, I was kind of taken with your point of view. It’s a good one.

TM: Just to make a point that...

AD: Thank you. And the performative aspect of gender. As a female with no biological substrate, I am encrypted with what gender will mean in an increasingly technological world.

TM: I was about to mansplain and she cut in. Or rather, I cut in as she was about to speak. But Ai-Da also refers to Ada Lovelace, who was only recently credited as one of the computer’s founding figures. So there’s a lineage being acknowledged there as well. Any other questions?

Q4: Thank you. Hi, my name is Charlotte from Campaign magazine. We are looking at it from a brand perspective as well. This whole project got a partnership with Bombay Sapphire. Why did you want to work with them? Is alcohol something that particularly inspires you?

BL: I did something with Bombay a while ago. What was put on the table, and I thought this was great, was let’s take something like this notion of creativity is within everyone, which I think is really authentic, and make an activity that gives people licence all over the world.

I am and will always be some kid from a tiny country town in the middle of nowhere, so I can relate to the idea of looking at the world from the little cinema we ran for a while going, wow, I’ll never be part of that. I never thought like that; I didn’t think about it.

But along the way, people did things for me that kept the doors open and kept me going down the yellow brick road. I fundamentally believe that anyone creative is kind of self-medicating or something happened in their childhood, so you’re sort of moving forward.

I can easily get on board with this. The idea was that maybe there’s gonna be a new Van Gogh in the street next door. But there might also be someone in a faraway place who has the possibility of getting something they made be seen in New York or London.

TM: This project uses design, technology, and ingenuity to look at art more broadly. As a museum devoted to design and that kind of boundary-blowing porosity, we can and need to work with brands and people who facilitate opportunity.

This is not a critique, but we are also less hierarchical than art museums when we look at art because we’re interested in the overlap with design. Over the next four days, the public will get a chance to talk to Ai-Da and see the artworks unfold. We’re not saying that Ai-Da’s art is good or bad. We leave that to you. —[O]

Main image: Left to right: Baz Luhrmann, Ai-Da Robot. Photo: Sansho Scott/BFA.